Stories & practices that empower real change

Joseph Jaworski – Part 2: The Source of Innovation [Transcript]

In dialogue with Walter Link

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Joseph Jaworski

I find a deep peacefulness in nature and an emergence of a clarity that I don’t gain any other way. A clarity about my own reality and about what I’m confronting.

 

Walter Link

30 years later what I really understand is that this destructiveness is not our essential humanity. It is the distortion of our essential humanity. And if we don’t learn how the distortion happens, including in child raising and education and the organization of our society. And if we don’t learn how to undo the distortion then we will repeat over and over the destruction as we are doing it.

Welcome to GlobalLeadership.TV, my name is Walter Link. I’ve always been fascinated by the question of how we move from our many challenges into our full potential as individuals, organizations and whole societies. In this television series I inquire with some of the most innovative leaders from around the world about how they manage to move from inspiration to real change. Please join us in this exploration because we all make a difference and we all can get better at it. Therefore, on our website, we not only show other dialogues and publications but also the kind of practices that these leaders and their organizations use to move from inspiration to real change.

Today I invite you into my intimate dialogue with Joseph Jaworski which is composed of two parts. Part one enters into the heart of synchronicity. Part two delves into the source of innovation. This is part two which focuses on the source of innovation. Here Joseph also turns the tables on me and demonstrates his renowned interview style as we question each other about how leaders mature.

We met in Amsterdam where Joseph introduced his latest book Source, The Inner Path to Knowledge Creation. Like in his first bestseller, Synchronicity, The Inner Paths of Leadership, Joseph reaches again into the core of how individuals, organizations and societies can move toward their full potential. Joseph’s own path went from developing a successful law firm and becoming Shell’s head of scenario planning to later tackling some of the world’s greatest challenges such as the eradication of child malnutrition in India.

In this dialogue we explore how to catalyze innovation by deepening our connection with nature and each other. Please join us as we delve into the source of innovation.

 

Walter

How has your relationship with nature developed from there and how is it becoming a practice that keeps connecting you to a depth of knowing that informs your work?

 

Joseph

I came to know from that experience, and all my other experiences after that, that nature is the greatest teacher of all. And it has informed just about everything I do. And I have made it an absolute point that in all of the work we do in organizations or in societal transformation that all include deep work in nature as a consistent element, it’s not an option.

My practice, and we teach this, is to do the Qigong practice in nature every day and on the weekends to seek out someplace that’s like a park or where you can spend a significant amount of time there, and I do that every day.

 

Walter

I think many people go into nature and like nature. Spend holidays on the beach or in the mountains or weekends in the forest. But there is something important about doing meditation, doing other practices like Qigong that support, in my experience, the opening into a deeper aspect of nature that can be not accessible if we bring an ordinary consciousness to that relationship.

 

Joseph

That’s a profoundly accurate statement. So that’s what we teach and that’s what my practice is. Every morning, the most powerful time to do it is an hour before sunrise or an hour after sunrise. That’s the most powerful time I have been taught to do it and I make it a practice to do it that way.

And I spend 30 to 45 minutes every day and if I have a particularly challenging day I will spend an hour out there. It’s absolutely true that sitting in nature in a contemplative way journaling is a good practice and it’s a useful practice. And meditating in nature is a very powerful practice. And doing Qigong in nature is an extremely powerful practice.

It’s going into nature with that intention. I have been taught and I have found that intention is paramount in your interaction with nature. And so in the mornings I go with great awareness and intentionality and the first thing I do is give my appreciation to her just as I have been taught and I have found that that is a very powerful practice.

Begin every morning with awareness, looking at the trees or the nature that you are in and acknowledging and giving deep thanks and appreciation and love to nature. It’s a living exchange. It’s a coproduction.

 

Walter

What I experience having lived, especially I will say very intentionally the last ten years, close to very unspoiled, pure nature in California and other places around the world, is that nature mirrors my depth of being. And, similar to really deep spiritual teachers that are so untainted by distortion of the reality they are, by the impact of civilization and culture. Nature kind of mirrors back to me my pure state of being. And so in the contact there is a further alignment, a development with my own purity. I don’t know whether you experience something like that?

 

Joseph

It’s absolutely true. I find a deep peacefulness in nature and an emergence of a clarity that I don’t gain any other way. A clarity about my own reality and about what I’m confronting and how to resolve the issues of the moment. This clarity is the byword for me.

 

Walter

What’s also important for me, and I think we also share that in some ways, the work I do with leaders and with organizations isn’t just to help them, even though, of course, that’s very important, but to create models to support the emergence, clarification and strengthening of models for a new society.

Of course we are all seeking sustainability. We seek it for our relationship with nature and society and our financial systems. And to me being in nature is a deep inspiration and a learning, in a way, from its direct reality of being sustainable within itself. With being a system, with being a system that doesn’t create waste, that doesn’t create insustainability. To then also learn, how do we bring that into society?

 

Joseph

This is a very definitive reason that we take people out, certainly for their own development, that’s clear. But also they cannot be in nature the way that we are talking about and not come away with a deep respect and love for nature. And without exception they want to do what they can to help. It’s ultimately over, I would say a years time of spending much time in nature, they come away with a very different view of how they’re going to treat our system. And it has a ripple effect.

The other thing that we have experienced, I explained how emotional I was when I saw the whales that way and what an emotional experience it was. It turns out that this happens on a reliable basis with people in nature. And I asked John Milton one day because it kept happening to me, what is this? Why am I affected so deeply?

And he just looked at me and he said, oh Joseph, it’s the opening of the heart. And that’s what I experience. And so time and time again we will take top management teams, middle management teams, whatever, into nature to spend even just four hours or certainly the times when we have them gone solo which is four days and three nights in solitude, in deep nature. On a reliable basis when they come back to talk about it they can’t even speak many times they are so emotional. Their heart is so open.

 

Walter

And that then gives, in my experience, the opportunity to also start cultivating the heart because I think the first opening, the emotional opening is important but it also gives us the possibility to enter the heart more and more and more deeply into the depths of love, the depths of reality, the reality of our interconnection, the reality of the inspiration that brings about creativity and innovation. Which is not the same as the initial emotional opening but the initial emotional opening is a precondition to develop the depth of the heart.

 

Joseph

Precisely. The heart has traditionally been seen by all indigenous cultures as the transmitter station for spirit. It’s the central element of one’s spiritual experience. And everything you just said is absolutely correct. We pay a great amount of attention to the development of that in our processes with people.

 

Walter

Since you and I can’t do all the work ourselves, we also have spent a lot of time looking into both education and leadership development and I think we share a challenge that many people would like to help, many people would like to be facilitators, leadership coaches and all these other professions, but it also, in our experience, takes a lot of time to develop to the place where you can really skillfully do that. And so I think as society we are facing a tremendous challenge in how to support the development of people to help with the integrity of the time it really takes. But at the same time with the need of bringing these supportive activities to scale.

 

Joseph

Yeah, this – I’m smiling because it’s a huge dilemma for us. I’ve tried all different sorts of ways and I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s all about levels of human development. And you have got to develop the people that are going to help facilitate to this third level, minimum, hopefully the fourth level that I write about in the book Source.

And this is a slow process. And it happens over time and with great discipline on the part of the people that are making that journey. And I have found that it’s better to just let that process complete itself or get close to completing itself before you undertake huge projects with people who are going to act as the facilitators. It’s just a lesson I’ve learned that it is a painful lesson.

 

Walter

You talk about that in regard to working on this huge demonstration project addressing hunger in India. In a nutshell, what was the challenge there?

 

Joseph

Well, this was one of my more painful experiences in life. We formed the Global Leadership Initiative, we did the sustainable food lab first which is hugely successful. And I can explain the reason that it was hugely successful is that we followed these principles that I was just talking about.

 

Walter

The principle of Bohmian dialogue that you also use in your other leadership work?

 

Joseph

Exactly. And the principle of developing the facilitators so that they can deliver the way that Bohm wanted that to be delivered. So that truly the group can operate a single intelligence. So in the Indian project it was so huge, it was truly a moonshot type project. It was to help reduce child malnutrition significantly in the state of Maharashtra.

And I could not undertake this, I was busy doing all the other things, including raising the money for the project and so we had a group of facilitators whose responsibility was to train, first sixteen and then up to forty, Indian facilitators to deliver this over years. It was just a huge disappointment. The hard work was not done by the facilitators on our team and, the kind of work we were just talking about, self-development. And the project met a brick wall. It was a big failure for a while.

Until it was turned around by doing exactly what we said: Stepping back, taking the time to develop the people and then have them do the work. And it was a painful experience but it was a hugely worthwhile experience for me because it finally gave me the answer that I knew I had to follow. Which is the one I mentioned to you: Take the time to develop the people, don’t start a project without it.

And it caused me to go on a journey, an inward journey myself, to better understand what I had originally developed with my colleague Otto as the so-called you process which had been practiced by a whole generation of theorists and practitioners but without this knowing that I painfully received.

It took me four or five years to actually sit down and be able to clearly articulate what’s in that book that is entitled Source now. But it was worth it. These are subtle sorts of things to point out and subtle aspects to how you improve the you process. But it’s clear that it is not a linear, mechanistic series of steps. It is very different from that.

Walter, the thing that I would like to hear is how you began doing the work that we have been talking about now for over an hour. What is your story? How did you actually begin?

 

Walter

It’s interesting because I think my first really big crisis happened in my early 20s. And I came to deep spiritual work and then led to the leadership work. Not through seeking awareness or spiritual development. I was deeply engaged in both business and politics and I was allowing myself finally, having grown up in Germany and having dealt with the Holocaust and the second world war on any level from economics to politics to sociology to history, but not allowing it to really touch my heart.

Because it was just so incredibly painful. Growing up in Germany and facing this tremendous suffering. And so in my 20s fortunately I was working on two movies and I finally, over many, many months of reading the letters of people from concentration camps, even from soldiers, reading the court documents, seeing hundreds of hours of documentary and working on these two very intense movies about the continuity of history.

How we continue repeating, century after century, history, that I realized I needed to go inside myself if I wanted to really understand what causes people to be so numb and so mechanistic in destructing. Because I think that really was the terrible thing about the Holocaust. It wasn’t just flareups of anger and hatred that led to some killings. It was this very cool, very systematic, very industrial destruction of millions of people and the operation of the whole war. And the people that raised me in my whole society had all been part of this.

 

Joseph

This is hugely meaningful to me to hear you say this. Were you aware that my dad was a prosecutor of the German war crime trials? And he came back from that experience so damaged by what he had seen that he could not write about it for fifteen years. And then ultimately wrote a little, small book called After Fifteen Years, reflecting on his experiences over there. And he was trying the first six war crime trials in modern history, laying the precedent for the Nuremberg trials. And his conclusion was, to his citizens in America, watch out it can happen here.

 

Walter

I think that’s the important learning also that I had at the time, that as much as each of these genocides are specific, they also tell us something about the distortion of our humanity. Because what I found out thirty years later, not having written the book at the time, I actually had already the book contract and I said I am just too young to write about this, I don’t understand it.

So now, thirty years later, what I really understand is that this destructiveness is not our essential humanity. It is the distortion of our essential humanity. And if we don’t learn how the distortion happens, including in child raising and education and the organization of our society, and if we don’t learn how to undo the distortion then we will repeat over and over the destruction as we are doing. Because in a certain way, at the moment, we have an environmental genocide that is just as well organized, industrialized and, by most people, not fully realized as the human killings that we have seen through the history of the world.

 

Joseph

I think that’s a profound insight and what I learned from my father in the stories that he told me and the insights he gained, I came away with the same feeling that in the Holocaust and the fact that the ordinary citizens were participating in this in a way that was stunning to me. In one case, for example, the people who were ill, that had TB, were brought into this hospital and the doctors and the nurses who had sworn fidelity to human life were actually injecting these people with poison and killing them and then killing their children. Because this was part of the program. To take the Jewish people from Poland and exterminate them.

 

Walter

And this whole extermination process started with people that we now call physically or mentally impaired. So it was this possibility of the mind to do something that would be impossible with an open heart. But because their hearts had been numbed to a place – and I feel like I owe a huge debt of gratitude to the people who suffered. Because it was through bearing witness, through the empathic opening into their suffering that I could actually break through the shell of my own conditioning. Like you were saying, you had your divorce and you had this impact of the Watergate crisis. And they kind of broke through your veneer.

And so for me it was a kind of facing this tremendous human suffering. So this suffering that, in a certain way, the generosity of that suffering gave me the gift to open into my own relatively small, but for me, significant, pain. And to become human in a certain way. Because I think we are not – we are born human but we have to mature into real human beings. And that was the beginning of my inner journey of maturation.

 

Joseph

And this is when you were in your 20s?

 

Walter

Yeah

 

Joseph

How did it unfold after that? Did you go away and begin a time of learning or did you continue to engage in enterprise?

 

Walter

I did both. I did start a very engaged psychological and spiritual journey which included thirty years of several months of retreats a year and intense practice with teachers and teachings. And at the same time I worked in the world wanting to bring that inspiration of service into actuality. I couldn’t just do a personal journey for my healing. As I was seeing the lack of healing in the world I needed to also do what I could from the development that I had to contribute.

So I got very engaged in these different movements that wanted to reinvent society and civilization. Like for example, I got very involved, having had a business background, in the corporate, social and environmental sustainability movement. And it was actually wonderful to see how at the beginning we were only very few business leaders coming together. And then did this crazy thing that people thought was ridiculous. And then over time to see how, you know, how like water seeping into the earth, it gradually expanded and expanded and expanded.

 

Joseph

and what year was it that you actually had that experience in the film that started your journey? What year was this?

 

Walter

1980s, the early 80s. Because it was a process over a long period. It was many months, many months that took me to – out of despair and kind of almost a nervous breakdown. But then with the help of both teachings and people I found a way. And what’s interesting is that then working more and more in the world of action trying to develop these movements and also organizations that kind of modeled this new thing, both companies and nonprofit organizations, I also realized that we all have the same challenge. Because it wasn’t about only having these great visions and great intentions. A lot of these projects didn’t happen because the leadership couldn’t live the new paradigm.

 

Joseph

Couldn’t actually live it.

 

Walter

Yeah, the individual. I mean we could not really embody the change. So I realized I myself and the people I was working with leading these organizations had to continue to do this inner development work. And also the relational work because that’s really where a lot of these innovations were failing.

 

Joseph

So what was your step to actually begin making that happen?

 

Walter

My first practice was both psychological therapy and a meditation practice. I studied with various Asian meditation masters like the Dalai Lama who at the time wasn’t yet such a big shot. You could still go on retreats and have deep exposure to him.

 

Joseph

Did you travel to him?

 

Walter

Yes. And then also with Thich Nhat Hanh who was a great Vietnamese teacher and students of Achan Chah a Thai teacher. So I had exposure to various Buddhist teachings and did a lot of practice. And then later I also found my way into the Diamond Approach which uses as its primary practice, inquiry, an inquiry process that in a way takes what we are talking about in the Bohmian dialogue process both on an individual and a shared journey of discovery with very great precision on how to do the inquiry.

Because I think what is interesting about inquiry is that we all do it in some way. We all explore our questions that we have, alone and together, but only in science do we really have a very specific, precise process on how to do that. But that process is primarily intellectual. And how can we now bring in the depths of our heart, the depths of our being, our connection to nature, our connection to each other? So bring our wholeness with that kind of precision into inquiry? So that is the practice that I’m now following.

 

Joseph

Very interesting. I can recognize the importance of it and the effect of it. Part of my practice that I have developed over the years is what we call the generative dialogue practice which is based on what I learned from David Bohm. The way I describe it, when I go into one of these dialogues that may last three or four hours, is that ultimately, and this can happen twenty minutes into it or an hour into it, but if it’s going the way that I intend for it to, is that I ultimately end up feeling so connected to the person it’s like, and I use this, it’s an umbilical cord.

I am that connected. So you mentioned that this is all about relationship, and that’s the way the universe is organized. And in this little microcosm what we are doing in the process of dialogue and inquiry is creating new knowledge. Because we are, the two of us, acting as a single intelligence and tapping into deeper knowing.

 

Walter

And I think meditation is a very important tool for that because it trains me, and I bring it into, like you, organizations and leaders. So it trains us to go deeply into the experience so that there kind of is a breaking through the ordinary chatter of our mind and also kind of a deep connection to feeling and being.

 

Joseph

Right

 

Walter

But then the dialectic process of being together kind of further accelerates this. So in the, for example, coaching environment or just in our context now, the presence that we access through that deep focused contact to ourselves also brings deeper contact to being in this field that we are together. And so suddenly there is a capacity to co-create that goes much beyond an individual’s capacity.

 

Joseph

Precisely. And the other byproduct I experience a lot is the feeling of love that develops between people in that process. Deep respect and abiding love.

 

Walter

Yeah, I feel that in our contact right now. And the humbling grace to enter into such a, in a way, simple and yet profound contact with a human being. It’s just so touching to have that opportunity.

 

Joseph

This is what is so profound about the process is that this is the human condition I believe. Is this natural connection with one another and the loving aspect between us. And I have been taught that it’s these boundaries that we have put up through our education and our socialization that doesn’t allow this. In this process that you, your inquiry process and this generative dialogue process, those boundaries fall away and you are back to your natural state.

 

Walter

Exactly. And I think that’s also the key. We can give it names like inquiry or generative dialogue or meditation, all these things. And the danger of them is that they somehow create them as different and distinct things. But really there is a deeper reality behind that and what I really regret in the whole leadership field and the field of all these different titles, dialogue and conflict resolution and all these things, is we kind of cut apart what is really, and separate, what is really holistic phenomenon. And I think it would be much more helpful for the world if we would not get so much stuck in our different labels and names, but in this shared understanding of this mysterious process that we engage in that is a living reality.

 

Joseph

It’s really true. It’s this fragmentation that infects the whole world. And if we just recognize this is the actual human condition and there’s tools and processes to help us get there, to wash away this education and socialization, yes, but it’s all the same thing. And all the things we were talking about earlier in this dialogue, they are all the same process. These management teams getting together and being able to create profoundly generative solutions to things, it’s all a result of this.

 

Walter

What I love in my work with people in action is that I’ve a very traditional training of being a psychological and spiritual teacher. So I have lived in these communities. And for them action kind of is a secondary afterthought. It’s all about the self illumination and the healing and the awareness. And what I see is that the people that I work with that lead organizations or outstanding artists or sportsmen or whatever, they actually have a very profound access to this inner world and this capacity that arises from it, but not the awareness of it. Not the understanding and recognition. They just function that way.

 

Joseph

Right. This is what I was trying to say at the outset of our dialogue was that I didn’t really understand what was going on. I just did it. I could tell you story after story after story about how I and we created things and resolved issues together to get there that was just completely representative of what you were just describing. But we had no way of naming it or describing it, we just did it.

 

Walter

That’s why I feel that when we were talking about practices for human development, of course meditation and contemplation and inquiry and therapy and so forth, they are all very useful practices. But an unnamed practice, an insufficiently explored practice is that of action. Especially when there is a waking up within the action. I think, in fact, we can only really grow up into our full potential when we also act. Because life makes it real.

 

Joseph

I completely agree with this. It’s worth underscoring, this whole notion of teaching people to be able to act. Just on an individual level, time and time again people tell me, yes, I realize I have these flashes of insight, these knowings, and I never act on them. And I try to help people learn to, A, be aware of what it is that is making itself apparent to them. And to trust it. And then to act on it. It’s a very important element that I think is overlooked, is acting.

 

Walter

Yeah, and I think it comes from the fact that our developmental processes are reflected upon mostly by the people who are more in the inner development business. Whether they are spiritual teachers or educators and so forth. They are not primarily actors in the world. But there used to be, for example, in Indian tradition, a profound spiritual path called karma yoga where action in the world, in an awake way, was seen as the primary practice for illumination.

So there were different kinds of yoga. Yoga meaning union with God. There was bhakti yoga, loving devotion. There was raja yoga, understanding. So there were different kinds of yoga. But the action yoga was also a very important one and what I’m very interested in also in this kind of dialogue is that I think we need to bring this into modernity.

Because I think some of the most interesting people, some of the most awake people at the moment are the people in action. Like I’m thinking of some of the dialogues I had for example with Marina Silva who is one of the great Brazilian politicians. The most successful green politician in the world really. And who is now creating a movement and who has by the way a very deep inspiration from nature of growing up in the forest as a poor rubber tapper and being illiterate until sixteen before she had this incredible intellectual and political career.

So there are these incredible people that develop companies, that do civil society work, that are artists, but we need to somehow understand more what it is that allows them to be so successful because I think then we can learn for the rest of society.

 

Joseph

Exactly. In my experience, when you’re in the midst of the creative process and have a sudden illumination that comes to you, in certain instances there is a rightness to it that is so clear that there is nothing else that you can do but act on it. It is just so right. And so I want to help develop people’s awareness and courage to be able to trust when that happens that they need to do what I did which was run to the phone to see David Bohm, to find David Bohm. Or when I was walking down the street one day and saw a U.S. News & World Report which said, Rx for leadership in America.

Because my filters have been cleansed by these events in my life, it was like a laser focus on that magazine. I noticed it, went over there and grabbed it and opened it up and there was an article by a person named Tom Cronan. I bought it, read the article and there was a rightness to it. I got on a plane and went to see him. And that led me to John W Gardner who became my mentor and opened the door to seventeen others who became the trustees of the American Leadership Forum.

And I look back and I wonder, what would my life be like if I had not seen that and gone to it and picked it up? My life would be completely different. So these are minor worlds of action. This is not like creating a new business all of a sudden, but it is just these little small acts that seem right that if you do act on them that they have profound implications for your life. Are you with me?

 

Walter

The only orientation in this inquiry process that I’m working with with people and also with myself is to follow the truth of the moment. To develop a truth compass. And, we’re not talking here about truths in terms of an ideological or idea truths. We are talking about what is real, what is significant, what takes me one step further into what is real and what is supposed to happen? So to develop that inner recognition of what’s true and then also the courage to follow that regardless of consequences. That’s for me the key of effective inquiry.

 

Joseph

That’s profound, it’s absolutely true. And you beat the path as you walk it. These moments of insight, and then you act on it and then it leads you to the next and the next and the next.

 

Walter

Yes, and that’s a very interesting point in regard to intention. Because I think when many people hear the word intention they think of a preset goal that you orient towards. But even though there might be that directionality and that goal like, for example, working toward a sustainable civilization, we cannot know how that will look because it is by going step-by-step that it unfolds. Of course we can have some ideas about existing technologies that we apply in greater level and human capacities that we hope will develop in other people, etc.

 

Joseph

Yes, so this is precisely correct. So you have a direction, you may have a general direction, but it doesn’t have to be well formulated. You just follow the process you were describing and you will have success in any common terms. This is so simple and yet so profound that it must be taught. It’s the key to a successful life.

 

Walter

How can we bring the full integrity of inner work and this wisdom that has been developed for thousands of years, how can we that into the fast-paced world of action that can so much benefit from this? But at the same time has the difficulty of recognizing the value of taking the time it takes.

 

Joseph

It’s a paradox, it’s a huge dilemma. I would value the opportunity to walk this path together and try to find a solution to it. I do consider myself a novice after decades of work on this. And I find that in the things that you are saying today and the experiences I’ve had, there’s many lines that cross. We’re having the same experiences.

 

Walter

And I think recognizing that we are novices forever is a key. There is this very important teacher, a Zen teacher, Suzuki Roshi who created this term, beginner’s mind. Basically saying that if you think you have arrived and know it all, there is no more space for innovation, there is no more space for new discovery and creativity.

So it’s the recognition that we have a lot of understanding and development, but at the same time that it never ends. And I think that’s the beautiful discovery for me that there isn’t even a particular state that you want to end up in, being always in a deep state of emptiness or compassion or whatever. No, life always keeps unfolding. It’s a new, fresh and unpredictable.

 

Joseph

I love that. It’s absolutely true. Well, this has been a profound experience for me Walter, thank you.

 

Walter

How so? What’s being touched?

 

Joseph

Seeing myself in you. The experiences that you’ve had. Your path has been, in most ways, more extraordinary than mine. And you have sought out teachers from all over the world and have learned from them. And so it’s quite remarkable to hear your story. I’ve read your biographical sketch as well. And to see what you have accomplished in your own personal development. And mine has been much more limited in terms of the people I have learned from and so forth.

 

Walter

Spoken like a real humble person but when I read what you did in your life, I blush at your words.

 

Joseph

I honestly feel that way. And yet our experiences are so consonant. And what we’re learning in the moment that has to be done is so consonant. I find it wonderful.

 

Walter

I think for me it’s in a way, come from a similar background. Like being born into the world of action and picking it up there and that’s how we grew up. And I think maybe that’s also why we have such an appreciation for inner work because we also have suffered through being people in the world of action.

 

Joseph

Yes. That’s very true. But that’s what’s touched me is I’ve enjoyed being in your presence and learning from you and seeing how parallel our paths have been in many ways.

 

Walter

When I first saw you I was just touched by the depth of your presence. And I loved that it came together with the wittiness of a Texan lawyer, that had worked at Shell and that had done all these things. Because there is this, really I think that is our potential, that’s what we want to bring into the world. This kind of connection between the ordinary world of action and the depths of our human being. And what it can do. Therefore I think it’s understandable how we see in the other more than ourselves because I, of course, look at you and I feel very touched by what you have done and inspired by what you have done.

 

Joseph

Thank you, this has been a great experience.

 

Walter

Here ends part two of my dialogue with Joseph Jaworski. If you missed part one, the heart of synchronicity, please join us there to explore Joseph’s personal journey from the discovery of his life’s purpose to a deep relationship with his father, Watergate prosecutor Leon Jaworski.