Stories & practices that empower real change

Rebecca Adamson: Indigenous Perspectives on Sustainability & Business [Transcript]

Watch the Full Episode HERE.

 

Walter Link:

Welcome to Global Leadership TV, my name is Walter Link. I’ve always been fascinated by the question of how we move from our many challenges into our full potential as individuals, organizations and whole societies. In this television series I inquire with some of the most innovative leaders from around the world about how they manage to move from inspiration to real change. Please join us in this exploration because we all make a difference and we all can get better at it. Therefore, on our website, we not only show other dialogues and publications but also the kind of practices that these leaders and their organizations use to move from inspiration to real change.

 

Please join my intimate dialogue with Rebecca Adams, Cherokee economist and founder of First Peoples Worldwide. Born to a Cherokee mother and a Swedish-American father she effortlessly bridges the worlds of indigenous wisdom and modern economics. GlobalLeadership.TV co-founder Wim Beijderwellen and I met Rebecca in her hotel in São Paulo where she was negotiating with Shell on behalf of indigenous people. Rebecca helps us to understand how much we can learn from 40,000 years of indigenous wisdom as we try to develop models for sustainable business and society.

 

Walter Link:

So indigenous people of course are known for their special sense of community and their particular ways of relating and I wonder what we can draw from modern society. From those ancient traditions in terms of learning about relationship and community.

 

Rebecca Adamson:

The subsistence economy is founded on four key principles, one of which is community is essential. And it’s through the form of community that all sort of assets are controlled. So that your fishing grounds, your fishing camps, your hunting grounds. There’s a very fluid usage right in there where just because you’re born, you’re born into a set of user rights. You come from one clan for your mother and your father’s clan. That clan might have fishing grounds here, or hunting grounds here. But you are guaranteed those equal rights. It would be almost like the mere fact you’re born you’re allowed to have a credit card in today’s society.

You have certain economic rights by the fact that you’re born into society. But those rights within that community sense are controlled in that community for the collective good of the community. And the fluid usage rights are for that widest distribution of wealth. We’re also looking at within subsistence economies that nature is our source of knowledge, so we’re looking at things like the best time to take the fish, when its the fattest and biggest and when it’s in the most in quantity, versus reasonable yield, or maximum yield. There’s principles that come out of a subsistence economy that can actually be applied to today’s business models.

And when I look at going through a subsistence economy and at the way that community is essential, everybody owns the community but no one can sell the community. If you go back to the 60’s there was an industry that was actually going under. It was in this fit of highly competitive, highly regulated system, and it was the credit card industry. And at Visa, Dee Hock reorganized the credit card industry because you had each bank issuing its own credit card competing with each other. And in order to organize credit so it could be distributed widely, as wide as possible, they basically had to come up with principles to operate Visa that were identical to principles to a subsistence economy.

There’s no one bank inside Visa no matter how big it is that has more power than the littlest tiny local bank. You’re both a supervisor and a subordinate and a producer and a consumer, all within the entity of visa. Everybody can own Visa but nobody can sell Visa. You start looking at this understanding behind that systems design and you actually see a way out of this mess, because we’ve got a system now that I believe is perpetuating most of the violence in that it is a fair based system. If you truly believe that we’re all out for ourselves and we’ve gotta get as much as we can because we’re gonna run out, that is frightening. But it drives consumerism. So if we begin to look at not the fact that everybody’s exactly the same and we all get five hundred dollars or whatever the figure, but that no one is as rich as Bill Gates, or Warren Buffett, and no one is as poor as not being able to eat.

What we’re looking at is a range here about an economic system that works for all. And we’ve gotta bring that back under control. And its gonna be value based. We have to ask – we have to begin to ask how we measure our economy based on the well being of the society. Not on GDP. Not on profit margins. But on the well being of all of us. Those are principles that are coming out of indigenous understanding. They are principles that come out of the way an ecosystem is inter-related. If you take out all the beavers, the way they build the dams actually influence the way the moose migrate. We’re back to quantum physics. This is the way the world works, and we have to begin to learn that all over again.

 

Walter Link:

You know when Dee Hock came up with the idea of the Visa system it was an incredible innovation, it was seen as very innovative. It seems that the innovation capacity that allowed indigenous people to come up with these distribution systems that did allow a living in a true harmony with nature was also very, if you want, innovative or creative, and that the source of that creation was closely linked to ceremony. To the relationship to nature. To a deeper inspiration where they were opening into what is actually a wise and functioning solution that did produce also a wise and functioning economy.

 

Rebecca Adamson:

One of the characteristics for indigenous people around leadership is humility. And it’s also one of the characteristics about how we learn. You approach nature with full humility so that you then can be open to learning. And I’d be really curious what you’re learning in the leadership work that you’re doing and the journey you’ve taken because I believe it’s through that kind of humble leadership that people find their way to wisdom. And I think that one of the things we have going for us is about 40,000 years of experience. And to throw that out as if it’s disposable so that we can move on to the technology and to think that information is more important than wisdom, will be a mistake, a fatal mistake for all of us if we let that happen.

 

There’s so much wisdom and knowledge around us, and if I look at how, with indigenous peoples the idea of learning is a process of self-discovery, and that you go to the plant or you go to the animal or you go to that entity in nature and then you discover with that that knowledge that it holds innately. That’s a very different model of learning than going to a school where there’s an authority figure telling you. I think there’s just a transformation taking place around human consciousness and leadership is going to be much more of an opening up and an exploration.

 

Walter:

You have of course undergone many years of personal development, and to come from a very rich cultural background that’s also been very challenged. And how was your journey through that, your journey of opening?

 

Rebecca:

I’ve also worked with community and I’ve always worked from a point where I just so fundamentally believe in indigenous peoples, in our decision making and our ancient wisdom, in our traditional knowledge. So it’s always been an advocacy piece. But I also then worked in economics and there was a journey there around money and a journey there in financing and working with philanthropy, which is a real power structure, it comes from an idea of philanthropy is charity rather than a reciprocity. And so, I really had to go through a regrouping and I think I had to go through some deep, inner journeys. I now participate in ceremony in a much more frequent, almost religious way, in that I’m very, rigid about making sure I get to ceremony. I’ve become much more aware of, I knew in the past if working internationally I would go into situations and even domestically in the United States, where I recognized my job was to absorb that negative energy so we could get to a safe place to actually talk.

I didn’t recognize what it was doing, and how I hadn’t done the work I needed to personally to do, to be able to, once you absorb it you have to do something with it. And I hadn’t taken full responsibility sort of for the role I had, if I were going to be a healer, there’s a lot of responsibility in that role. And carrying it on into power and finance, I really just had a physical breakdown. And had to come back to understanding that I’m not doing this alone, I’m doing this in a way that, really ceremony brings you back into connection. Ceremony brings you into that presence where ego is gone. I’m not going to save the world. And I think I was driving myself, I had to get this next piece done, I had to raise this next grant, I had to get this negotiation through. As if I were going to save the world. Well, hello! I am one part, I am related to all and I am a piece that’s going work with the whole. And that had to be a journey that allowed me to, I think, be a better leader, really. It’s a lot of ceremony.

 

Walter:

Take us a little bit through the word ‘ceremony’. What is it? How does that feel like? What happens there? What’s the inner experience that you have when you do, which I think many people don’t understand what that really means, you know, ceremony.

 

Rebecca:

They transport you out of yourself. You really, I don’t know if you’ve experienced but a lot of times your day to day activity, I say you’re in your own mental chat room, your mind is always going, I gotta be doing this, I gotta be doing that. In a lot of our cultures, there’s no concept of past, present, future. You would traditionally never been in that kind of mental chatter. Because you’re not thinking about what happened to you, and you’re not thinking about what you’re going to do. You are experiencing right where you are and that’s very difficult to do in today’s society.

 

Rebecca:

And I think you get. I think you get new information. And it’s information that you don’t have in a list, or coming through you on a text, its information you need to reflect on, and it comes to you in a very slow, wonderful, I guess old-fashioned way. That’s ceremony.

 

Walter:

So when you sit in a board room, with the top business leaders that you work with in large corporations like Shell and many others, how does that translate this experience of being in the ceremony and to really meet these people in a way to create better life, whether it’s better life for indigenous people or for the world as a whole, how does that actually translate?

 

Rebecca:

For me I think it allows me to always be truthful in the kindest way. But it also opens up in magical ways, conversations. I was with one of the three largest companies in the world and they were talking, and I have a small non-profit, and I’m making these grants, $500 grants, a thousand dollar grants through our Keepers of The Earth program. A thousand dollars they don’t even turn a receipt in for in this corporation, right, what’s a thousand dollars? And so and I was meeting with the CEO and four board members, which they originally wanted me to practice, they wanted to tape it and have me do a script and then they were gonna tape me and I could go in with the script and I was like, well I can’t do that.

First of all, I won’t follow the script, I know myself. And so I’ll do what you want me to do, I said, but I’m going to talk to the person, and I’m going to respond to the person, so I won’t follow my script. And I just couldn’t imagine what I wanted to say being more important than listening and being able to talk on that level. That was different. I think. And then we got into the conversation where it was the CEO and he asked me he said well how does it make you feel, thinking about working with us when we have so much power? And I said well, what power do you have?

And he said, well, we’re one of the top major companies in the world. I said, well I understand that, I think it’s just really exciting, but what power do you have? And he says, well, if we fund you and you’re smaller. I said, um hm, I’ll be smaller, I said, because I don’t think you’re going to give me all your money, I said, but my power comes from a source that I would welcome you to share. I said my power comes from within. And I don’t think there’s anything that you have that I want, I said, other than the idea that we can be friends, we could have a relationship and I can be honest with you. If I can’t do that, then we don’t have a friendship. And that’s the end of that.

I said, I don’t need your money, I guess it’d be nice, I said, but if that’s what you’re thinking power is, I don’t see it that way. And it actually did not stop the conversation. He went on to talk to me in a completely different way. We talked about his skiing, we talked about his family, and I’m still working with him. And I’ve carried news in there, that maybe necessarily hasn’t been what they wanted to hear, but it’s always been done in a way that is looking at the relationship of being human beings on the planet. And pushing very hard on the personal responsibility and accountability for the actions. And there’s, I think there’s a problem.

 

Leadership is about accountability. Leadership has a high standard of accountability I believe and responsibility, and we’ve been building these systems over the course of the past several hundreds of years that is forever taking accountability out of the equation.  I mean I see it on Wall Street, exactly, all the time. You see it in the corporations. Markets – that’s an externality. You know we’ve just polluted an entire incredibly beautiful lake, but it doesn’t count because it’s outside of the economic system. Our systems are being designed in a way that is just continually removing that sense of accountability. And I think that accountability is that piece of connection. I feel accountable to you, for you, with you. I, that’s, there’s legends in many of the indigenous cultures about the beginning, our stories of origin. And many of those legends come from a sense of the only way power comes into the world is through a relationship.

You cannot have power by yourself. You can only have power through a relationship.

 

Walter:

You spoke earlier about the fact when you are relating in the world of powerful forces, powerful corporations, governments and transformation, there can be some negativity that you take on. And consciously in a certain sense take on to help change the system. Say more about that and say more about how you deal with that negativity.

 

Rebecca:

Well, going back to that part of the conversation when you asked me about ceremony, that’s really why I started going back to ceremony. I, quite frankly, I’d come out of these meetings with splitting headaches. I mean splitting headaches. And I found myself going into these cycles of migraines where they’d last like 96 hours. And then I’d come out and maybe 48 hours later I’d be going back into another one. And I didn’t – I had lost the ability to center and to recognize that that person needs to go through whatever they’re going through and that I need to respect it, but I need to hold myself in a way that’s connected to what I believe in.

And found that I probably had gotten knocked off center, had lost that sort of natural grounding, natural centering. It, I, I can’t really tell you how it happened or why it happened, I can tell you symptoms that point, but I feel like I was operating a lot in my head trying to make the argument, trying to go from a logical place with all of this, and not allowing faith and opening up and I began operating in the problem that I was trying to fix. As I said the people that create the problem aren’t the one’s that can solve it; I found myself trying to solve it in that mode.

 

Walter:

Many people think that in order to counter the power of the powerful, you have to somehow draw on anger. You have to draw on a certain rage that then gives you also the sense to be powerful. And what you are addressing is, and I think your story shows that there is a different way, where you can be very powerful, but you can be powerful in a healing manner, that being healing and powerful is not mutually exclusive but it can be mutually supportive.

 

Rebecca:

If I’m getting angry at an angry situation, then I’m just adding more anger to it. That’s why I talked about the polarity. I mean all this is, is angry here and angry here. And then we’re angry together. And it just then multiplies that anger. And I found myself in that situation where, wait a minute – I’m just now finding anger and bringing it in and putting there too. And so we haven’t done anything except gotten madder.

And that came out of wanting to win. And you know I can justify it and say I felt like seeing my people die, seeing my people starve made me angry, but I – the anger is not what’s going to solve, because that anger is also what we turn in on ourselves, what makes us drink, what makes us do spousal abuse, what makes us quit ceremony, what makes us lose ourselves. And so it was really being aware of what you said about that; I believe the healing energy can’t be an angry energy.

And I think across the board when you go to many of the traditional societies, their relationship with nature is such that our feeling of need to heal, those ceremonies are not about anger. Those ceremonies, you cannot go into and come out of a ceremony angry. You cannot do it.

 

Walter:

You were paraphrasing Einstein. And I think the way maybe how you could formulate it in talking and the way you are is rather then the person who has created the problem can’t solve it, is you can’t solve the problem out of a certain state of being that created the problem. You have to in fact go into another place of being and then you can solve the problem. And the same person can be in either a constructive or destructive state of being. And I do a lot of coaching for example with not only business people and politicians but with non-profit leaders and social entrepreneurs and what I find is that more and more there is an awareness that we can challenge a limiting situation, a destructive situation, but we don’t have to make the other person our enemy.

We are adversaries in this moment, and we have to learn to be strong and clear in that way, but we do not need to hate them for that purpose. And in fact if we do, if we get lost in that hatred it’s very hard to turn the situation around into partnership, which is really what we are aiming at. If we do not ultimately achieve the possibility to become partners in solving the problem, we’ll just have a standoff of forces. And I think what the last decades have shown is that nobody can win. Neither can the big corporations crush civil society, nor the other way round. And I think in all institutions you find beautiful human beings who might be lost in one way or the other if we don’t work together to find our deeper humanity, I think its very hard for us to find actually solutions that are truly humane and sustainable.

 

Rebecca:

I think you’ve articulated it really well. If you bring it down to a microcosm, just in a relationship if I want to be in a relationship with another person, and we have a disagreement, do I want to win the argument or do I want to solve it and have the relationship. Because truly the minute you’ve won you haven’t. You just haven’t. Because the relationship has paid for that.

I believe every society, every society, organizes itself socially, politically, economically according to its values. They just have this, from their worldview they have a set of values and they begin organizing their societies, whether it is the political or the social.

And we can look at conservation in the dominant society or current society and an indigenous society. Over here we’re gonna just pollute where we will, and then we’re gonna set up some national parks. And if we just set up 20% of the land surface in National Parks then, and we’ll make ’em pristine and take all the people out, and then we’ve got a balance. Well I don’t even know if it’s a balance but then we’re ‘okay.’ But, the rest of us don’t have to be responsible then. We don’t have that connection to nature anymore. We can do what we want and we’ll just keep this nature over here by itself being nature.

And the indigenous paradigm sees all of this as nature. The paradigm is one of protection and production, production and protection. You protected your place because it produced for you, and it produced for you because you protected it. So the understanding of how connected you were was one for balance. That the ultimate conservation was wherever you are you live in balance. No matter what your place you are responsible for balance and harmony. If we can get some of these paradigms into our business models today, and our conservation models, it will change the model, but it also addresses the problems we face right now, in such a sophisticated way.

I look at the economy and we are in a fear-based economy. If we look at and believe the economic paradigm of scarcity of resources and individual insatiable appetites, then you automatically design a system for accumulation, because we’re gonna run out so you better get yours, and competition because I gotta get mine before you get your because we’re gonna run out. That is so fear based, and yet you’re seeing it does work. We’ve got a few people that have hoarded a lot of stuff, and accumulated a great deal, and a lot of people trying to get there and we are going to run out.

An indigenous paradigm in an economic sense has always been one of prosperity of creation. We might run out of fossil fuels, someone’s gotta say it, it’s absolutely true, but if you’re looking at energy, there’s wind, there’s solar, there’s energy sources we haven’t even tapped yet. But there’s a prosperity of creation and a kinship sense of ‘enough-ness.’ I’m going to take what I need so that you can have what you need. And let me show you a fascinating piece of this, I don’t know if you can get it, but this is a graph of an Inuit village on a whaling hunt. They brought the whale in and they distributed it. These are the points of distribution for the whale pieces. And according to custom and culture everybody gets a different piece of the whale, and this is how many places it went in the village.

This is the same village with cash and the distribution in the cash. Truly two very, very different paradigms of an economic system. I would imagine some lessons here might get us to sustainable development.

 

Walter:

In this kind of more romantic perspective of our native people, you know, you think of ceremonies and that’s beautiful, but there is actually a very rich culture of knowing how to get things done with very little resources and to sustain that for a long time.

 

Rebecca:

If you were going to look at offshore drilling, no matter what you’ve got to come in to shore at some point. Knowing how the ice shifts is a knowledge that no scientist has down right now. If you lived there forty thousand years, getting your boat out and getting your whale and seals back in, you’d know how that ice shifts just by looking at it. Uh, firefighting. Fire management techniques by the aboriginals was outlawed by Australia. Wasn’t it about three years ago they had one of the most horrific almost coast to coast fires wiping out their brush lands? Would have never happened had they not outlawed Aboriginal traditional fire management techniques. Now they’re doing classes on it.

 

Walter:

You speak about different paradigms of leadership, and you know, as we have seen now in our work together also over the past decades, I think there is a movement from a purely materialistic paradigm that of course is still growing all around the world into another materialism that is a better, greener, more sustainable materialism, but it still only looks at the matter. It just looks at okay, instead of producing energy from fossil fuels, we’re now going to produce it from solar energy. And that somehow is going to fundamentally change the world. But it still stays somehow caught in a certain paradigm that is material and often disregards the immaterial, the intangible, which is really what we also need.

We have of course physical needs, but we have also immaterial needs, and I think one of the biggest problems of our paradigm is that we try to fill the whole of the immaterial needs with matter. With consumerism. Even greener consumerism. And it never satisfies. It’s never enough. And I think what we are talking about here, is how can you also address the material and the immaterial needs and find really that kind of balance. And that’s a whole new paradigm that in a way is much harder for us to appreciate, because we are not learning about it, nobody is showing us that in school in university and the media. Nowhere.

 

Rebecca:

I think it’s the leadership piece. It really is the leadership piece, and what you’re exploring in this, is what I talked about when I said you have the individual, insatiable appetites as an economic rule, law. Right there you’ve put in a belief system about it never being enough. You have absolutely – and yet I have seen when people say it’s enough. I’ve seen people be extremely generous for no reason other than it’s human nature. You feel good to help and share. So you have these two belief systems that are operating right now, and most of our leadership’s over here in the old one.

And this new leadership is coming along that is finding new ways and tapping new parts of humanity and bringing that into the forefront. I mean that’s what you’re finding. In a lot of ways I might say that that’s ancient wisdom, and yet what you’re reaching is what would be called ancient futures in many ways of rethinking, we’re gonna need the same systems, we’re gonna need an economic system, we’re gonna need a conservation system, we’re gonna need, we’re gonna need institutions in our societies. But we need the leaders now that can re-think the fundamentally different ways of organizing this.

 

Walter:

Given all this wisdom that is available in native cultures around the world. We also can see that in contrast to that so many of the native people seem to live in such incredible distress, from alcoholism to all kind of dysfunction that is really hurting themselves and their culture and how come that this culture somehow can’t access its own wisdom and apply it to many of the people that are living in it?

 

Rebecca:

And the contradictions that are within the period that we live in right now, really. I – it’s a reality that has been brought into being. I think what we’re seeing is, like I said, I’ve worked in indigenous communities where the alcoholism rate is 500 times the national norm. And to understand where that comes from, its basically death, its a suicidal wish that’s slowly taking its toll and it comes from having been stripped of our culture. In many ways, what I can say is hard for someone else to really understand and feel – and when I say we are spiritually tied to our land in a way that is about who we are and the very essence of our identity. When you break that tie, you have severed a deep, deep wound within us that can literally kill us. Where you can see this, I’ll take us over to Africa, working with the Pygmy, the Batwa or the Minenelo over there. They were removed from their forest, the impenetrable forest up in the Congo basin of Africa to make way for parks.

 

They wanted to clear them out so that they could have these people-free network of parks in that basin. Forty five thousand Pygmies were forcibly removed out of their ancestral territories. Their understanding of who they are, the essence of their reason for living in every spiritual sense, was to take care of those lands. So as they now understand it, they are now being punished, their children are dying of starvation, they’re sitting on the roadside forbidden from going back into their territories, and it’s all because they’re not taking care of their lands, according to their stories of origin, according to everything they know about themselves. They’re responsible for that land and they’re seeing it get ruined and they are not taking care of it. When you go out to our communities, you will still hear, even from someone who is on the verge of passing out from drinking. They will still talk about the land in a way of being responsible and tied to it.

So much of that gets broken. Our parenting gets broken because our kids get taken away and put into boarding schools. Our sense of identity gets crushed because of the racism. And looking at a program on TV, you’re told that you’re supposed to act a certain way, look a certain way. All of those factors have an impact and yet we have seen when we’re in communities in the work we do we make small grants through our Keepers of the Earth fund and we’ve actually been able to see that the number of drums in a community tells you how frequently they have ceremony. How frequently they have ceremony directly affects the drinking. Directly affects the spousal abuse. Those ceremonies bring us back together. Tie us in a way that bring us to the present of recognizing and once again understanding who we really are. But if we’re still not on our lands, we’re still not truly fulfilling our God-given responsibility. And that is so fundamental. It’s just really hard, it would be the largest desecration imaginable in any religious society, and is comparable to that for us. It’s denying the god that we know. That has an effect on you. It has an effect on your people.

 

Walter:

So you also grew up in that same culture, in that same situation of being taken out of this deep connection with nature, growing up in a city. And how did you find your way out, and what is the way forward for indigenous people that allows them to stay in contact with these deep traditional values, but also in a way live the next iteration of their potential?

 

Rebecca:

That’s a good question because I want to be really clear, it’s not about being indigenous. It’s not about being an American Indian, a San or a Sami, it’s really about this understanding, this fundamental connection and relationship that you have to the sacredness of life. In my own personal experience, I was very fortunate, I definitely, I had a Swedish father and I had a Cherokee mother, and I grew up sort of in the middle of the all American dream. So I could have been schizophrenic, and probably my teenage years somebody might have told you I was. Cause I was just testing every boundary I could find. But it allowed me to move from the different worldviews and at a time when I didn’t understand what I was doing, you need grounding. But I think the value of being able to move from those worldviews is the value of being able to pick what’s best from both, to bring in the richness and the strengths into a whole. And I grew up with my grandparents in my early years, kind of the traditional way, where your grandparents will do a lot of the childrearing. And I can remember going for long walks with my grandfather where we just were out in the woods. We didn’t talk. I mean it would just have been unheard of for us to talk.

We just walked, we would sit down, we wouldn’t say anything, we might be gone three hours and then we would walk back. What we were doing was really listening. I can remember how the creek sounded. I can remember how the wind sounded. That stayed with me. I remember being out in the middle of the Kalahari and the San people had just been told they were going to be forcibly removed from the Kalahari Desert, which is the last of their ancestral territories. And again ironically it was a game reserve and the government wanted to upgrade it to a park, which meant that the people have to be removed. And I’m sitting there and I say well I’ll work with you so that the government can’t do that.

And they were so overjoyed. First of all they were talking about how they could smell the happiness, and I was thinking about how far away I must be that I can’t smell happiness now. You know, because that’s truly what they were telling me, they were so happy with that idea. And then they had a trance dance. And so granted I’m in the Kalahari desert, night time, full moon, huge bonfire. I’m closing my eyes and I’m hearing these sounds and I’m hearing the wind underneath like a bird’s wing, as it lifts how you get whoosh when you hear these birds take off, I’m hearing these cracks of the twigs and these breaks in the branches, these snaps in the branches. And I open my eyes and its kind of dark but it can see with the light, and I’m looking around and I don’t see anything and I’m hearing this rustle in the grasses. And I’m thinking is this a snake, or lion or what the heck’s going on here?

And then I realized that they’re talking and it dawns on me how else would we have learned to speak if it wasn’t imitating the sounds of nature. So I had the chance to sit there and really understand that feeling that I had got from my grandfather. That understanding of being able to listen and the sheer joy of being among people that were still so close it. That that is the very way that they talked. I think that that kind of connection, and it’s, it’s in all of us, we are all beings of this nature. Of this particular world, in this particular manifestation that is very alive. So you don’t have to be Cherokee. You don’t have to be San. You have to find that consciousness. You have to find that love, is what a number of your leaders talked about, that’s the basis of that consciousness. And then we have to get really serious about how we re-organize around that value.